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    Phil: Yeah, an ordinary straight pin.


    Joe: In the hyperbaric chamber with sodium silicate.. that’s quartz crystals isn’t it?


    Phil: You just drive a stainless steel pin in it and it becomes ten times stronger. We don’t get those sugar ants anymore because it’s too strong. They don’t like to go where there’s high paramagnetism and keep away from it. But, if you go out to a harvester ant hill, they cut the leaves so they can get them down and the leaves slowly ferment of which they feed from. If you go to the harvester ant hill, you’ll notice the mound is white and pink. The ants bring quartz and pink granite pebbles ant by ant and cover the whole ant hill with the stones. So, you’ve got a paramagnetic and diamagnetic hood over the cone of the mound. It’s a paramagnetic layer that covers the ant hill.  If you go out here about a half a mile, there’s a harvester ant hill and if you look at it, it’s white and pink. It’s just common sense.. ask yourself, “what does the ant do?”


    Joe: You just had a good thing there.. a blue bottle with a couple energy balls.. put it in the sun..


    Phil: the sun..


    Joe: ..and drink the water.


    Phil: ..and drink the water and you’ll never get sick.   You put these around the house and never get a cold.. whatever you call a cold (laughs).


    Joe: Now, what if you took one of those metallic möbius’ that Tesla was talking about, for instance, that was made out of audio video tape. You put a möbius inside that and tap it with a nail. Is that what you’re talking about?


    Phil: If you make it counterclockwise it’ll be good, but if it’s clockwise



    it’ll probably ruin you.


    Joe: Counterclockwise..


    Phil: ..counterclockwise, yes.


    Joe: That’s exactly what Tesla said. “To the left… always to the left.”


    Phil: The Irish people for centuries.. they don’t do it anymore.. I don’t know why, but if you took a church, like the one at Nock where that statue is from which is a paramagnetic limestone church, they would warn you to never walk around it clockwise. They walked around it counter- clockwise. Never walk clockwise because it would make you feel sick. Still does.. if you walk around that church clockwise.. I did it one time to see and ended up sick to my stomach. I was throwing up all night long.


    Joe: The Indians have these medicine wheels and they always go to the left. Nobody’s ever understood this.. if you take a möbius and turn it upside down it should be opposite, but it isn’t.


    Phil: No, because it’s got a hundred and eighty degree twist in it. It’s got no one side to it because it’s an infnite loop.


    Joe: There’s no up or down on it. When you drill a hole in a möbius, where does the energy go from?


    Phil: The energy probably separates and goes around the hole. Some of it might fall in the hole, like a hole in a water pipe, not much though because the energy’s too fast just like water goes around a hole in a fast stream, it doesn’t go down except for some.


    Joe: If you were to wrap one of these as a capacitor with the gold foil, would that intensify it?



    Phil: Yeah, if you wrapped it to the left. If you wrapped it to the right it’ll probably make you sick. If it’s counterclockwise it’d probably cancel the effect of being sick from one that was wrapped clockwise.


    Joe: The mind.. you’re doing this with your mind and the fact that your mind is doing it to the left. Do you think the human mind has something to do with the energizing aspect?


    Phil: Doctors know that.. that your left mind is your thinking side. Your left side of the brain is the side that reasons. The right side is the one for language. Your right side memorizes like for language and your left side reasons. They’ve known that for a hundred years. Tesla said that. He realized he was thinking with the left side of his brain.


    Joe: I gave you one piece of paper there. I saw Syd’s paper on that and he quoted me on it. Tesla said that the only way we could protect ourselves from detrimental magnetic felds was to use a metallic möbius wound to the left.


    Phil: Everything in nature that works is designed counterclockwise. Once you go against the energy of the sun it becomes excess energy. You can’t handle it so you make sure it goes on the left side of the brain there.


    Joe: These little things can be tested so easily… using birds for example..


    Phil: The reason why people are so sensitive is because they have an excess on the left side of the brain.


    Marilyn: I have a question about direction.. is that also true south of the equator?


    Phil: There’s a big debate going on now and the way I… every time I fy south of the equator which isn’t anymore, I don’t know if the airplane was canceling it, but I didn’t get any real difference, except one time I was in



    the jungles of the equator, I got the impression.. I didn’t stay there long and I didn’t have my CGS meter with me either so I couldn’t make sure.. but, I got the impression if you stayed at the equator.. if you went around in clockwise circles, you’d get sick. I didn’t stay there long enough, but I had the impression I didn’t feel as good.


    Joe: I’ll have to check that one out.


    Marilyn: But, if you went south of the equator..


    Phil: South of the equator it’s the opposite..


    Marilyn: So, south of the equator you’d want to go around the church clockwise.


    Phil: Clockwise, right.


    Marilyn: Okay, that’s what I was wondering.


    Joe: On our fortieth anniversary, our kids gave us a boat and we got down to the point where the boat was using seawater to fush the toilets. I went in there to use the toilets and when I fushed, it went the wrong way. So, I spent an hour sittin’ there looking at it fushing.. I got myself a bottle of booze and watched it go ’round and ’round. I thought I’d lost my marbles.


    Phil: You gotta be careful because of the natives and headhunters south of the equator. I had a hard time trying to explain to them, but they wanted to do the opposite of what I was talking about. I fnally got to the point. Robyn or Raymond.. I can’t think of his name at the moment.. Robyn was a scientist.. Raymond was a famous shaman among the headhunters. He was a friend of mine and probably the funniest part of it was.. I had a Cessna two ffty and the pilot was a major in the Peruvian Air force.  I was a copilot of course and the shaman wanted to fy.  So we



    got him in the plane, but when it started, he was terrifed. He got in the back seat and huddled there and we fnally had to land him in a cow pasture. We thought he was gonna die. He was so afraid of that thing. He wanted to be in it so bad but then we had to land in a clearing and let him out (laughs). He said he’d rather walk back home.  And he did (all laugh). He had about a twenty mile walk.


    Joe: Burt told me one time that.. he was talking about some people.. the indians.. that there’d be Spanish boats that would come into the harbor.. the Indians would look at them but couldn’t see them. They never had anything to relate to that boat so they couldn’t see it. Not until they took them out on a boat littler than that and take them to the ship and after that they could see it.


    Phil: That happened to me with birds. Some birds you can’t relate to cause you really don’t like them. Sittin’ right in front of them and you can’t really see them. Bird watchers sometimes tell me, “How come you always see a hawk, but you never see hawks?” Well, because subconsciously you don’t like hawks because hawks kill other birds, so you don’t see them. But I can see a hawk now in the corner of my eye. It can be a couple miles up in the air and I’ll still see it.


    Joe: I was down in Brazil one time and there was a tree sitting out on the plain and it had these beautiful leaves I’ve ever seen in my life. They were forescent. So I took this land rover and drove over to it and as I got near all the leaves few away. It was a dead tree. Something shocked the hell out of them.. the leaves just blew away!


    Phil: The birds were sittin’ on it. They love those trees. Hawks always pick on that tree. I used to when I was younger about sixteen or seventeen.. I would hardly ever look for hawks nests.. I’d just get a little white mouse and put him in a wire cage and make a hundred loops using wire. A wild hawk would come down to get the mouse and get caught in the wire loops.   I’d take the hawk and tame it.   Most people never get them tamed, but I can in three days. I could tame a hawk and it would be a perfectly wild one. Sometimes you’d lose them because they get out of sight and you couldn’t fnd them. I’d never bother with looking for the nest, I’d trap them in Ireland and just train ’em. I’d trap kestrels, but I didn’t want to hunt birds anyway. I’d trap rats and mice instead. Kestrels hunt rats and mice. There’s a book around here an English friend of mine wrote. I was just reading it this morning. It’s somewhere here near the couch. There it is.. “Lure of the Falcon”.






    Joe: I read your books. I think I know everything I know about your books, but I read them over and over and there’s always something that I miss.. that I always pass by. I’ll pick up something after the tenth or twelfth time or whatever. There’s something there that wasn’t  there before.


    Phil: That’s why I write ’em. A lot of people interested in nature.. they love my books. They buy ’em. Acres can’t quit printing them.


    Joe: I wish the old man’s eyes would get a little bit better.


    Phil: Yeah, that’s a shame. Chuck Walters is a genius in agriculture.. an agricultural genius if there ever was one.


    Joe: I hadn’t seen him in a little bit and I was up there.. I can’t.. it’s just hard to believe he’s going blind.


    Phil: I tried to tell him to use a little paramagnetic rock in his orange juice. I don’t know why people don’t listen. I told him, “if you put a little ground up  paramagnetic rock in your orange juice it’ll probably cure you.” He never did.


    Joe: Oh, what if I took a quartz tube, like a test tube, with paramagnetic nineteen thousand CGS, and even seal it at the top and put that in there.. would the vibrational frequencies go through quartz.



    Phil: I usually put it in plastic tubes, but quartz would be a lot better. Plastic is diamagnetic and quartz would be stronger and you wouldn’t need a nail any more.  It would be just too strong and you wouldn’t need a nail.. it’d be so powerful it would cure anything.


    Joe: If you took a copper coil in there and coiled it to the left and put it up like an antenna.


    Phil: It would make it a little better.. probably make it an eighth or a quarter better.


    Joe: Silver or gold?


    Phil: Silver or gold would make it a little better.. by a quarter or stronger.


    Joe: If you put a little pressure on the crystals…


    Phil: It would make it better.  Clamp it using a little pressure, not a lot.

    You’d have a powerful healing device.


    Joe: We’re talking about several different energies aren’t we.


    Phil: That’s piezoelectric energy there. You can imagine piezoelectric energy to infra red energy.. all transistors work that way.. transistors are piezoelectric.. So, that’s the transmitter, and what comes out is electrical energy as a radio wave. That’s what works in an airplane you talk about a vacuum.. if you stop to think mathematically using a little integrated calculus, the vacuum the plane couldn’t possibly get off the ground. The plane is so heavy and the vacuum is so weak it wouldn’t work. That’s what’s in all the books. The electrical and aeronautical engineers say it can’t work because there’s not enough energy and I’d say, “well, look at this..” and I plugged in some calculus formulas on the board to show how it worked. The airplane is made out of aluminum and the skin of the plane is cloth.. that’s diamagnetic, and oxygen is paramagnetic, then the whole thing lift.


    Joe: What if you put little scales like on fish?


    Phil: That’s why the fish can move upstream. They use paramagnetic and diamagnetic energies.


    Joe: What if you put some on a model airplane?


    Phil: Well, they’d probably levitate in the air.. the fish would float above the tank and they wouldn’t stay in the water (Joe and Phil laugh as Phil demonstrates with his hands what it would look like).


    I did that once, not with fish, but I did that with a bug once. I took a needle and generated a paramagnetic force on the bottom and a diamagnetic force above it and it floated in the air. An entomologist came along and said, “Well, it’s flying”. Well, beetles are heavy because they have the heavy wing covers, elytra. Well, it can’t be flying they say “it’s too heavy.. it can’t be floatin’ in the air like that.”



    Joe: Well, they said that a june bug or a bumble bee can’t fly.. aeronautically it’s impossible.


    Phil: They don’t know about paramagnetism and diamagnetism.



    Joe: You think that’s why the june bug and bumble bee can fly.


    Phil: The oxygen is paramagnetic and the june bug and all insects are mostly water just like people. You’re mostly diamagnetic because of the water. I couldn’t even measure the paramagnetism in your body because you’re mostly water and that’s diamagnetic.  I  could measure  the diamagnetism real easy, but it’s hard to measure the paramagnetics because there’s so little of it.. you’re about ninety-eight percent water, so there’s just a trace of paramagnetism in your body.


    Joe: What energy are these dowsers tapping into. Is it paramagnetics?


    Phil: Yeah, it’s paramagnetics. They take a quartz crystal on a string and can tell because your body oscillates back and forth from diamagnetism to paramagnetism. It just goes around in circles.


    Joe: Now, Walter Gurniak.. you met him from Cornell.. he died this last year. He told me that if you take a cotton cloth or silk string and cover it with bee’s wax..


    Phil: Sure.. the cotton string is paramagnetic and the bee’s wax is the magic substance. Bee’s wax oscillates from paramagnetic to diamagnetic states. So, pretty soon it starts to twirl around in circles.


    Joe: It’s a hermaphrodite, so it goes both ways.


    Phil: It goes both ways.. so is your body, it oscillates back and forth.

    One second it’s diamagnetic and the next its paramagnetic.


    Joe: That’s life. Life in balance


    Phil: If your body goes totally diamagnetic you’re dead.


    Joe: You knew Coates Perth and the psychic, Thelma Moss, who did that work for “Psychic Discoveries behind the Iron Curtain.” Well, Coates has come out with a new film in the theater.. let’s see if I can get you a copy of it and mail it to you.. what the hell was the name? What do we know.. what the hell do we know..?

    Psychic discoveries behind the Iron Curtain : Ostrander, Sheila : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

    Marilyn: What the bleep do we know.


    Joe: What the bleep do we know. And in it there is a lot of people.. it’s very good.. and they’re talking about things we’re talking about.


    Winnie: Oh, that sounds interesting.


    Joe: You knew Coates up at the UCLA.. I remember her in the lab, she carried her baby around with her on her back like a papoose. She’s a brilliant lady.. I loved her, but I looked at her in this movie and she’s old.. I haven’t looked in the mirror myself.


    Marilyn: There’s a little story built into this movie. She did a lot of interviews with these people all through the movie.


    Joe: I saw this movie and really enjoyed it. It’s just that I knew a lot of people who were in it. Just thought I’d mention it because it really makes you stop and think. We really don’t know much.


    Phil: I knew Edgar Casey real well. He was the happiest man in the world because everybody would bad mouth him and everything else until I came along and explained it all to him. Then they stopped bad mouthing him. He used all this stuff, but didn’t know how it worked until I explained it.


    Joe: He got that from dreams. I never met him but I met his son. He’s got a clinic in Arizona on Fortieth and Indian School and they treat people for cancer and all this other stuff. He’s got a couple of medical doctors.. Mr. and Mrs. Grady. I took my mother up there before she died.



    Phil: He wanted to save the Black Forest. The Black Forest, because it was non-linear, well, it wasn’t a mixture of bushes and trees and plants, therefore, it got sicker and sicker. I was talking to Casey one time and he mentioned it to me. He asked about it and all I said was what I noticed about streams. Streams serpentine through the forests and all the fish are happy and all the bugs are happy and everybody’s happy. So I suggested he make a big stream. He got tons of lumbar and made a trough. He collected snow water from the mountains somewhere north of the forest and sent it down the trough through the Black Forrest and it recuperated. They give him the credit for it for saving the forest just by listening to me.


    Joe: Now, the mineral that’s in that water that’s grinding on the snow is where the diamagnetics is showing up. What about the people in Tibet and all up in there that drink the glacier water?


    Phil: Same thing.


    Joe: You knew Betty Morales real well


    Phil: I never met her, but I knew of her.


    Joe: Betty went over there and brought back a couple jugs of water. I got in trouble during World War II when the Russians were there. I had them ship me water from all  over.. the rivers and spas, and I found magnesium sulphate of all things, and that was one thing that helped kill pain. I played with water all my life.


    Phil: Good water is built with chemicals that make it good.


    Joe: Well, minerals, rather than chemicals..


    Phil: Well, yeah, minerals  of all kinds are not just chemicals. Good minerals are diamagnetic. A lot of diamagnetic minerals are good as well as sand which is diamagnetic.. so if you have the right kind of sand in a stream you have tremendous relaxation.


    Joe: Quartz is diamagnetic and iron is paramagnetic.


    Phil: Anything that’s rust which is iron oxide of course is paramagnetic and water is diamagnetic. Most of the rocks in rivers and streams are a mixture of the two. The smooth pebbles in the stream are diamagnetic and the rough ones are paramagnetic. I always go to a stream and pick up a rock and if it’s smooth it’s diamagnetic and if it’s rough it’s paramagnetic.


    Joe: You said something that I always wondered about. You can’t magnetize a ball, but you can magnetize anything that’s got points on it.


    Phil: Anything that’s rough, when you look at it under a microscope like those balls, there’s lots of little points. It’s like millions of antennas, so it’s powerful.


    Joe: I found they’re more powerful when I mix sapphires with it when I grind them up. Now why would sapphires be more powerful?


    Phil: Well, sapphire is highly diamagnetic. It’s probably a CGS of minus two hundred instead of a minus seventy, so it’s very diamagnetic. The stronger it is paramagnetic and diamagnetic the more powerful it is. If you use basalt, which is higher than pink granite for paramagnetism, it’d be even stronger. If you get up to fourteen thousand that’s really strong. Basalt is about fourteen thousand which is really strong. Pink granite is only three or four thousand.


    Joe:. I mixed pink granite with magnetite and I’m getting about nineteen thousand.


    Phil: Pink granite is real good.



    Joe: Tesla said about this granite bed. He said if you want to charge these purple plates you have to put them on a bed of granite. Then you have to use Tesla coils.. high electrical power and leave them there for at least twenty-four hours.


    Phil: If you really want to charge something up you have to put more electricity into it, store it, and then cut it off. It charges and gets stored. You can charge this up (Phil picks up the container with the paramagnetic rocks, nail, and antenna) using a Racine motor for a couple days and it’ll be ten times stronger.


    Joe: I had taken this iron oxide and put it on a band-aid and then on a forescent tube where the power’s coming in and it doubles the life of the tube.


    Phil: Oh sure, it’ll double the life of anything. It’ll double your life. If you die at sixty you won’t live to 120 if you had paramagnetics around you, but you’d probably reach ninety or older. If you put these in your pocket you’ll never get sick.


    Joe: Birds can actually peck out the paramagnetic out of the soil and eat them.


    Phil: Yeah, birds know all about that.


    Phil: Oh yeah, if you kill a chicken and open its crop, you’ll fnd paramagnetic stones.


    Joe: Is this why birds like parrots have such long life spans?


    Phil: Yep.


    Joe: What about turtles, is this why they have long life spans?



    Phil: The water is going in through their nostrils. That’s why turtles are so long lived because they live in a paramagnetic environment. Unless it’s polluted and then they die. It’s not uncommon for a turtle to live over a hundred years. I had a box turtle.. my mother got tired of it (to Winnie) didn’t we let it go?


    Winnie: You took it without telling her..


    Phil: How ’bout that. I forgot about my mother. She fell in love with that turtle. It was a tortoise which is a land turtle. I wasn’t even thinking of her. It’d probably live to about a hundred and fifty years old. It’s probably still out there in Gainesville.


    Winnie: No, we took it on the road with us.


    Phil: Oh yeah, it’s in a marsh somewhere in Texas. There’s a lake somewhere..


    Winnie: We didn’t tell her we were doing it. She forgot about it.


    Phil: I hoped she forgot about it.


    Joe: I heard a joke one time about a fellow who sent his mother a parrot. He come home and says, “where’s the parrot?” The mother says, “why?” He says, “Well, that parrot was a real special parrot.. it understands six languages.” And she says, “Well, I killed it for dinner and it didn’t say nothin’..” (All laugh)


    Phil: The natives in South America eat parrots all the time. You give a parrot to a South American and he’ll be liable to cook it and eat it. They make real good eatin’.


    Joe: We went on a cruise and at this one place they had some iguanas and they had a deer on a string. I asked about it being fresh and they said they don’t have refrigerators. I said okay, that’s our food.. that’s dinner tomorrow. She was fascinated with the people down there and how industrious they were. We went down to an adobe making place and the man there had a wheelbarrow without a wheel. He just had a shovel and bring water in to make the bricks. It didn’t take anything to make a livin’.


    Phil: I used to watch them making those things in Texas. I grew up in Tennessee and Texas actually. My grandmother lived in El Paso, so I spent all my summers there. I watched them make adobe in the summer.


    Joe: They used to bring us clay and mix it water and get it going real good. Then they’d put a little water and then lay it over these women’s legs then shape it around the leg. Then they’d drill a hole and use a dull butter knife to cut around it and then they’d lift it up to lay it over there. And they were making tile for the roof! They’d have a skinny lady here and a heavy one over there.


    Phil: Different sized tile for the roof.


    Joe: I was pretty young in those days and I’d watch those girls.. it was pretty unbelievable. They make that tile pretty close to the site.


    Winnie: Didn’t that hurt their legs?


    Joe: No, they put water on them and they’d do that all day long. One right after the other..


    Phil: It was making them healthy too. They put all that paramagnetic clay on them.. they never got sick.


    Joe: They’d stack it up all over there and bring in dung and roots.. anything they could burn and put it all on top of the tiles and bake them.


    Phil: I’d seen indians do that in the jungles. The indians would do all sorts of strange things. The shaman too. I couldn’t figure out what the shaman was doing.


    Joe: The thing with these people of the jungles was feast or famine. All the food would come out at one time. All the fish would come at one time. There were periods for the elite. They hang these fish up and it would be very humid. They built fires around it and tried to smoke it, but the maggots would get in. And when you come in.. you’re a special person and they want to do something nice for you.. and they pass out this rotten fish and you’re supposed to eat it. I used to take this charcoal and eat it with the fish. And if you don’t do that with those people..?


    Marilyn: You’ve offended them.


    Joe: You.. offend them. They done the very best for you. If they get out of their bed so you don’t have to sleep on the ground you better sleep on that bed.


    Phil: The Jewish people of Palestine had some kind of food. I guess you’d call it oatmeal or something. Bruggle they called it. God, I used to hate bruggle. I used to sneak it behind my back and put it in my back pocket.


    Joe: The one that would bother me was, Poggi. These old men would be chewing corn and then spit it into this pot. If you were a special person, they’d run it through a piece of cloth and get some of that slime out of it. But to drink that stuff after it was fermented, it would uh…


    Phil: Yeah, the taste of it would be enough to kill you..


    Joe: was enough to turn your stomach.


    Phil: Yeah, it’d turn your stomach. I had to watch that in Israel. I’d have to sneak that into my back pocket.


    Joe: As long as you went along with these people and you done the same thing they do, you’d be fine..


    Phil: You’re fine.. you’re fine.


    Joe: could get a dart.


    Phil: Yeah, you get a poison dart in your back. They wouldn’t think of anything but of killing you.. that’s for sure.


    Joe: I think one of the things.. they can sense fear in a person. And they could also tell if you were sincere. If you had bad thoughts they knew it.


    Phil: I lived with the headhunters for five years every summer. I spent five summers down with the Ashyari headhunters and got to know ’em real good.


    Joe: I got out of there as quick as I could. They’re getting real mean there because of these white people and these prospectors and this other stuff coming down there.


    Phil: They were mean then because Ashyari headhunters didn’t have any use for anybody. I was the only one really ever to go there and live with them. They’d have no use for anyone. They’d kill you just as soon as looking at you. Most people go in there with a gun or a knife.. even a pocket knife. I’d go in there totally unarmed and smiling. They’d look at me as if I was crazy, but then after a while they got to like me.


    Joe: People that are crazy.. they treat them a lot better than they do with other people.


    Phil: Oh sure. They probably thought I was crazy. I’d come in there